Debt Management and Financial Advice for Dentists with Travis Hornsby, CFA
August 22, 2019
Our guest this week Travis Hornsby sits down with Shaun Keating and discuss ways of helping Dentists and recent Graduates understand their Student Loan Debt and provide options to eradicate that large sum as soon as possible. Travis helps us understand the PSLF Program, what EBITDA is and the difference between S-Corp and C-Corp Taxation. You will hear about all this and much more on this week’s episode of the Dental Up Podcast!
On this Episode you will hear about: -What is Micro and Macro Economics?
– Understating the supply and demand of your job according to your location.
– Understanding Student Debt and Business Debt
– Networking with the right people in your industry.
– The Difference between Student debt today and 20 years ago.
Host: Ladies and gentlemen, this is The Dental Up Podcast, brought to you by Keating Dental Lab, a full-service, award-winning dental laboratory. Each week, you’ll learn tips and techniques from real-world dentists, bringing you in-depth interviews, motivating stories, current events, and sports. Here is your host, Shaun Keating. Shaun Keating: Hey, everyone. Shaun here. Welcome to another episode of The Dental Up Podcast. Our guest this week graduated from the University of Florida with an economics degree in 2012. He is a chartered financial analyst who has helped over 1800 clients save tens of millions of dollars on their student loans through his company called Student Loan Planner. Currently practicing from St. Louis, Missouri, please welcome Travis Hornsby, CFA. How’s it going, Travis? Travis Hornsby: Going well. Great to be on the show. Thanks, guys. Shaun Keating: Oh man, thank you so much. You’re out there in St. Louis, Missouri. I bet you’re not too happy about those Rams leaving you, huh? Are you a Ram fan? Or were you a Ram fan? Travis Hornsby: Well, I mean, golly, I guess I kind of was, but that was a real heartbreaker, man. I think staying cranky and saying they’re kind of on par here in St. Louis. I hate to say that, it’s just a joke, of course, but yeah, people are real bitter about that. I think people mostly got over it because the Blues won the Stanley Cup [crosstalk 00:01:33]- Shaun Keating: I get that [crosstalk 00:01:34]- Travis Hornsby: That was a lifetime achievement for most people here in St. Louis was them taking home the Cup. Shaun Keating: I bet, man. It was heartbreaking I know, but those St. Louis Blues, I couldn’t believe it, man. That’s pretty amazing, the hockey, the way they came back and did it all, but that’s really neat. We’re thankful the Rams came back to us. You guys kind of took them… ol’ Georgia Frontiere or whatever took them out to St. Louis in the middle of the night about 20 years ago or so and kind of crazy, but we’re [crosstalk 00:02:05]- Travis Hornsby: That’s fair. We took them from you guys, you took them right back. That’s how it goes, right? Shaun Keating: That’s funny. What about baseball? You like the Cardinals at all? What do you do with sports? What’s your favorite sports and stuff? Travis Hornsby: I actually like basketball and I like football, so I like the Saints and the Sixers. I lived in Philly, I grew up on the Gulf Coast, so that’s where that came from, and I went to the University of Florida, so I’m big into the Gators, basically all their sports. We like the Cardinals in St. Louis. The Cardinals is kind of like a religion. If you don’t go to church, you go to Cardinals games or maybe probably more people go to the Cardinals games than church. It’s like the people here, they’re just waiting for a playoff run. They haven’t had a playoff run in like three or four years. If we had playoffs baseball in St. Louis again everybody would be happy. Shaun Keating: Oh, I bet. The Dodgers played them last night. I guess we were a little bit on top, 2-1, but that’s pretty good tight game, huh? Travis Hornsby: They swept us. We’re real sensitive here in St. Louis whenever we get compared to New York or Los Angeles. Shaun Keating: I tell you one thing, man, I got a friend who lives in Missouri, Overland Park… I think it’s Kansas, but dude, man, I go out there a couple of times every year and they got the best barbecue and just the people are just so nice out there really. It’s a pretty beautiful place, but gosh, that barbecue, man. I think you were eating barbecue last night. Where did you go last night, again? What was that barbecue place called? Travis Hornsby: Yeah, exactly, it was like Grace Meat + Three, so really I feel like the barbecue in St. Louis is kind of like DSLs in New York City or something. There’s another one popping up every 30 seconds. It’s saturation like crazy. If you want to have a challenging life, open a barbecue restaurant in a place that there’s hundreds of them right here in St. Louis. That means there’s a lot of good ones, though. Shaun Keating: Or a challenging career, go work for DSL. Man, I don’t know about that. No, I’m just kidding on that. Well, dude, I would say, “Let’s dental up”, but we’re not going to dental up. We’re going to talk a little bit about you and I brought you on because I have a lot of younger dentists and even dentists that have been in it five, 10 years and one of the biggest issues with dentists is trying to survive after dental school, especially if you didn’t have mommy or daddy take care of it all or get a full-ride scholarship somehow. I don’t even know if the Armed Services do that anymore, but it’s tough, man. I’ve got people anywhere from 200 on to 3 to 500,000 averaging with dental debt from their colleges. To come out and to be able to try to rent or buy a home and to be able to try to marry and raise a family with all that back debt facing you for 10, 20 years, it just depends on how you did your loans and stuff. Shaun Keating: Tell us why you got into finance first off, and then we’ll kind of get in on what you specialize in. Tell me, Travis, why did you get into finance? Why didn’t you go into another field? Tell me a little bit about that. Travis Hornsby: Well, I wanted to be a professor in economics, but then I took like really complex math courses in college and just realized I was so bored that I wanted to be watching the Gators, so I just realized that I didn’t have what it took to be a good researcher, and you obviously have to be a mathematician these days to be a really good economist. I just decided, “Well, I just like the more practical real-world applications of economics anyway, so I’m just going to get involved in the actual business world.” I always really thought it amazing what you can do with money, because my grandfather was a brilliant investor and did so without a ton of money. I just thought it was so amazing how somebody like him could have such a comfortable life on such a kind of middle-class income and I just thought, “Wow, that’s just so amazing. I just want to learn more about that.” Travis Hornsby: I went to work for a big company trading bonds and was investing in a lot of these deals. We built like the new World Trade Center, one of the big bridges across the Hudson River, a lot of the places out in California. It was really interesting getting involved and actually seeing how the economy works, but we were managing debt for people that invested in tax-exempt bonds and if you invest tax-exempt bonds it’s because you’re freaking rich- Shaun Keating: Exactly. Travis Hornsby: And you’re making a lot of money and you have a high income, which there’s nothing wrong with that. We obviously want people that have savings and build bridges and build highways and those kinds of things, but it just wasn’t something that for me was going to get me up in the morning for decades. I could just tell that it wasn’t that I was going to get super excited about. I saved up some money, quit, traveled the world, saw 40 countries, at the time started dating my now wife, and then she wanted to move for her job here to St. Louis and that’s why I moved here. Then, her father basically said, “This early retirement thing, I’m not down for that. If you want me to show up to the wedding, you better have an income or else I’m not coming.” I thought, “Oh shoot, man, that’s scary”, and so I looked… I didn’t need to work because I’d saved up a lot of money as a bond trader, but I kind of wanted to to have the father-in-law’s blessing. I had been doing this student loan stuff on the side because my wife had a lot of debt, so she got a lot of debt for medical school and I had to figure out and I initially thought it would be easy and then I realized that it was really, really hard because of all the different forgiveness programs and income-based options and for financing it was not straightforward. Travis Hornsby: I was giving help to kind of just friends at the time. I said, “Well, this is a pretty big area of need, so let me focus on this a little bit more.” Then, it really took off and we hired a bunch of people as consultants, as writers, a staff of PR people. We’re focused on the people who have the largest debts, so our typical client has got 280K of debt with a big range around that of people that have got 5, 600K and then other people have got 150K [crosstalk 00:07:57]- Shaun Keating: No kidding? Travis Hornsby: And everything in between. That’s how I got into it and I think finance is so interesting because if you rock it, you’ll just rule and you’ll have just tons of options in your life. If you suck at it, man, you just got to be slaving away until your 70s. Shaun Keating: Oh, I know. No, I hear you on that. I wish some of the dentists when they’re going to dental school… we always want to have them learn a little bit more about business if you could. They learn a lot of theory and a lot of technical stuff with dentistry, but to run a business and the finances, they’re not the best financial people as is not many… you have to hire people to… I have a CFO and I have an accounting firm. I’m an idiot, man. I couldn’t even tell you like, you graduated in economics. What the heck is… what jobs are there when you graduate from economics? Is it a financial type thing? I don’t understand. Tell me a little bit about how economics and what jobs are out there for you when you graduate with an economics degree? Travis Hornsby: Yeah, sure. A lot of people go into consulting, so economics teaches you that people respond to incentives, and so when you learn just a lot of that knowledge you can basically do things like, for example, figuring out how somebody should design an airport. What new routes should be considered for potential profit margins that people can do for an airline? Should you set out a layout in a store for CVS in a certain way to increase profit per visitor? Different other things like you might try to figure out, is there a way that you can incentivize people to save more for retirement by restructuring their employer retirement plan? Those are kinds of examples that are questions that you can study with data. Since I actually majored in statistics, too. There’s all kinds of studies that you can do to figure out, is this a smart business decision or not from a practical application standpoint? Shaun Keating: It’s kind of like [crosstalk 00:10:04]- Travis Hornsby: A lot of people in economics, they go into kind of business kind of roles. Shaun Keating: They’re kind of like… I always think of economists like a visionary, telling you a vision of what they’re thinking, be it in the economy, be it, like you said, building this… I never really thought a lot about it, what they actually do, but that’s kind of cool [crosstalk 00:10:25]- Travis Hornsby: Well, there’s different kinds of economics. There’s the macro stuff, which is kind of like witchcraft. Nobody understands it, like the stuff the Fed does. Everybody is like, “What the heck is that?” Then, there’s the micro stuff, so there’s macroeconomics and microeconomics, and microeconomics is the way that individuals and people and businesses respond to incentives and supply/demand curves and stuff like that. That stuff is super practical and super well [inaudible 00:10:51] tons of theory that really makes a lot of sense. The macro stuff, there’s things that people don’t really agree on and they argue about a lot, but for like micro stuff, I’ll just given an example, supply/demand curves. Travis Hornsby: If I’m in NYU kind of territory, you’ve got one of the largest dental schools in the country, and then you got Columbia nearby, and then you also have New York being one of the most desirable places for a young person to live in the world, right? Shaun Keating: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Travis Hornsby: You have a really, really high supply of dentists and you’ve got a demand for dentistry that’s probably similar to any kind of big area. The demand is not all that different, but your supply is just really, really, really large, much larger. You’ve got your downward-sloping demand curve, your upward-sloping supply curve. When you cause your supply to shift that supply curve to the right, it’s going to drive down the price a ton. In other words, just based off the fact that you’ve got a bunch of students graduating every year from Columbia and NYU in New York and plus the fact that New York is going to attract a lot of people that are going to want to move their anyway because it’s a desirable city, that’s going to cause that supply of dentists to be really high, and what’s that’s going to do since the demand is not going to be really affected, people in New York don’t just exaggeratedly demand way more dentistry than people anywhere else I think. Travis Hornsby: That kind of drives down the price of dentistry that people are going to pay because of the excess supply, and then furthermore, if you look at it from the labor supply side, the labor, the cost of your hiring a dentist are going to be a lot lower in New York than it would be in other places because you’re going to have way more dentists to choose from as an employer. The aspect is you basically have dentistry in New York is probably a lot cheaper to get than some places because of this high supply of dentists, and then also, the income that you can get as a dentist is not that great because there’s a oversupply. Shaun Keating: Exactly [crosstalk 00:12:47]- Travis Hornsby: Now, if you go to a place where there’s an undersupply like a place like rural Iowa, you might be able to demand super high rates because the demand for dentistry is still the same, there’s still interest in getting dentistry but the supply is not there for dentists that are willing to live there and do work. That’s why if you move to a place were dentists are in great need, based off of economic theory, you’re going to make a lot more money in a place like Brandon middle-of-nowhere, Iowa, and you’re not going to make very much at all in a place with a lot of saturation. This is something that traffic really plays out. Travis Hornsby: I’ve seen dentists that make 110,000 a year working six days a week in D.C. I’ve seen those situations. They’re not pretty, and then I’ve also seen people producing $2 million of revenue in dentistry in Iowa a couple of years out of dental school. Shaun Keating: They’re taking home probably 500 grand or more of it just- Travis Hornsby: Yeah, making five times as much money for working less. Investing 101, that’s all you need to know. You don’t need to take any more classes. Shaun Keating: Dude, I took my first college course online right now, and man, I feel smarter! Dude, that’s so cool, man. You learn something new every day, but I know how to make teeth, man. They’ve been pretty good to me here. I had like $1.7 million in debt when I opened my lab here and we got some SBA loans. It was an eight-year note on them and… hey, man, that was in 2012 it was paid off and all that extra payment is in my pocket now. I love it! Travis Hornsby: That’s great, and that’s different kind of debt than student debt. A lot of people can think about those being one and the same and it’s not because the reason for that is that you have asset-backed debt is very different from non-asset-backed debt because you can’t sell your brain. If you been at your practice a while now, you take that 1.7, you pay it down to 1.2, then your revenue has increased and the value of the business is higher- Shaun Keating: Exactly [crosstalk 00:14:42]- Travis Hornsby: You could sell that business and make a big profit. Shaun Keating: Yep, exactly [crosstalk 00:14:44]- Travis Hornsby: So even though you might still have 1.2 million in debt, you don’t really have that. In fact, for dental practices the big risk is in the first one or two years. As long as you can make the payments and pay down the practice loan in the first two or three years, you really don’t have that much of a risk. You’ll be able to sell it and probably get a profit out of it. That’s one reason why I’m always encouraging people to become practice owners instead of working for DSOs and being associate long term because that’s how you get that extra big chunk of money in your pocket is when you’re taking home the profit of your labor and not just the [crosstalk 00:15:15]- Shaun Keating: Exactly [crosstalk 00:15:15]- Travis Hornsby: Lead value of your labor. Shaun Keating: Not working for the man. I found that out. I just truly tell people in life with no matter what business you are in… I live paycheck to paycheck like everyone else working for somebody, even when you get up to a couple of hundred grand a year, your house gets a little bigger, you get a couple of extra cars, the kids are in high school and going to college, it all gets swallowed up it just seems like and you’re just… For 18 years almost, it was just pay check to pay check, but we’re fine. I mean, the best life. You think about when you really had nothing starting off and you think about when you have money now and the quality of life is the same, it just works out the same in a way, but I always tell people, “Man, you got to balls to start your own business, man.” It’s a big risk, but it’s big reward. Shaun Keating: It’s just some people don’t like to do all of that stuff, though, and yeah, I was very comfortable. I never would have started a business unless circumstances came to where we parted ways and like nothing I really thought I was going to do, but kind of ended up having to do it. What a blessing in disguise. It was like such a tough time, but same thing with the dentists. They’re going to be working for people that sometimes they’re not as happy as they’d like at certain practices. Maybe they got one or two or three practices, they’re bouncing around, but somehow… I always say it’s nice if you can get in the trenches and learn from different dentists on how to run a practice, how to practice in the trenches and how to run that office and everything else. Just go for it, man, and if you just put your heart and effort into it, it’ll happen. Shaun Keating: That’s how America was built, entrepreneurship of people working for somebody. What happens you get fired? Or what happens you don’t want to work there? You’re going to start it yourself, and man, it’s just the American Dream and it’s still there and it’s just anyone can do it, anyone. I’m a knucklehead and I did it and I’m not that smart in certain areas. I’m good at certain things, but what you’re not smart at, you bring people in and that’s with every company. They bring in people that are the best in those areas and that’s how it all works, but that’s kind of cool when you’re the top of that ladder and you bring those people in for you and it’s a beautiful thing. I just would love to see these dentists get out of debt so they could flourish and invest into a property for a dental practice or invest into buying a practice or invest into buying in with an associate where you kind of got to buy in and put your money for in, put some skin in the game. Shaun Keating: It’s a neat thing, so let’s really kind of get down to, what are some of the ways you can help recent graduates like say with 200K or more in debt? What do you start off with? What are some of your thoughts on that if you could? Travis Hornsby: The main thing that people need to realize is they don’t necessarily have to be free from student debt before doing that climb and going for that thing. For people that have a lot of debt, like 300K and up, and it doesn’t make sense, you analyze the math and it makes sense to go for forgiveness, then what you need to realize is your debt is really a tax. It’s a 10% tax on your income, and there’s ways to kind of play with the tax code, file jointly or separately and minimize that hit, too, but basically worst case scenario, you’re losing 10% of your income toward your student loan if you’re doing an income-based option. If it’s a 10% tax, that’s a lot better than if you’re an associate making 130K a year and you got to pay $4,000 a month because you refinanced and you answered one of those things you got in the mail. They sell your loan to a private lender. Shaun Keating: Oh, you’re kidding? Travis Hornsby: The person with the 200K, they can refinance it right away to a 20-year term and probably get like a… I think off the top of my head like 1300 a month kind of payment. That’s going to be fine. No bank is going to worry about that or bat an eye at that. You’ll still get all the practice loans as long as you’ve got a good production history and as long as you have 20, $30,000 in the bank, you’ll get a practice loan for a hundred percent down. You probably won’t even need to do FCA. I’m guessing you probably did some FCA because there was maybe real estate or project stocks involved, but [crosstalk 00:19:15]- Shaun Keating: Yeah. I had to put my house up and everything. They really want collateral, too. You don’t just get it, and then you have to have your banks and your accounts all put in your business plan. It’s quite hard, but it’s nothing like what a dentist would have to go through to get it. It was pretty tough to get that much [crosstalk 00:19:33] but yeah. Travis Hornsby: When did you take that loan out? Shaun Keating: It was like 2004. Travis Hornsby: Nowadays I guess the markets that I’m seeing in the credit markets, it’s like so easy to get loans right now. Shaun Keating: Oh, is it? Travis Hornsby: Oh yeah, and all you need to do is just have production that kind of makes sense. You could take over the practice, the bank just wants to see that you can weren’t just producing 300K in revenue as you’re taking a 1.2 revenue practice. They just want to see something kind of that makes them feel comfortable that you’ll be able to do that production, and then you just need to have no credit card debt, 3% of the practice purchase price in liquid assets, and at least one year experience and you’ll get conventional financing for a hundred percent of the practice in most cases. Shaun Keating: No kidding? Now, what do you recommend like on… I know it’s probably more of an accounting thing, S Corp, C Corps, what do you see in the dental practices more? Travis Hornsby: We do see people usually going with S Corps right now with the new tax code changes and the ability to maybe get some of that like… it’s like the schedule but [inaudible 00:20:37] stuff and the thing you can write off a percentage of your profits for being a small business. Dentists are service-based businesses, so you probably get capped on that above 300-something thousand. You might not be able to write off any special deductions above that, but most people are doing S Corps right now from what I can tell. Shaun Keating: I’m an S Corp. I was saying, “Well, I’m not a C Corp.” They said, “Well, do an S Corp.” It just all goes through the owner. It is what it is, I’m not complaining, baby. I’ve very happy. Travis Hornsby: You got to trust your accountant. You want to work with obviously somebody that mostly focuses on dentists. If you’re working with somebody that’s got roofers and like different kinds of weird… restaurants and stuff, that’s not what you want. You definitely want somebody that knows what they’re talking about. Shaun Keating: Absolutely. Travis Hornsby: The thing with the student loans, I’ve seen some problems with them because people will sometimes get too focused on them and they’ll try to be throwing all of their money at their student loans. If you’re making an associate income, you ‘re not really making a lot of money. It’s going to take you probably five to 10 years to pay off your loans if you’re singularly focused on it. Shaun Keating: Exactly. Travis Hornsby: Instead of doing that, if you get the right plan in place where you just have your loans set up in such a way that they’re not going to hurt you bad and get it on interest subsidies or get it on a forgiveness plan or something like that, or if you have a small amount, do a long-term refinancing. You get the payment low enough where you can go ahead and get into the practice, and then one of two things are going to happen. Your practice income is either going to skyrocket and you’re going to make all this money and you’re just going to think, “Well, I just want to get rid of this annoying debt”, and then you can refinance it, or alternatively, you’re going to have so many write-offs that your CPA is going to give you such a low AGI disclosure where… that’s adjusted gross income- Shaun Keating: What’s AGI real quick? Travis Hornsby: I know, I’m talking in acronyms. That’s always dangerous, so AGI is adjusted gross income. It’s basically your net income after all the write-offs are taken into account like retirement, write-offs for your building, taxes for property taxes [crosstalk 00:22:40]- Shaun Keating: Is that kind of like EBITDA or [crosstalk 00:22:42] I mean before interest defers? Travis Hornsby: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Shaun Keating: Yeah, man. Travis Hornsby: Yeah, exactly. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization, so basically the reason they say EBIDA is because there’s legitimate ways to reduce your taxes by writing off the value of things. For example, you’re going to write off a percentage of your building. You’re going to write off a percentage of your CAD/CAM or your CBCT or something like that. You’re going to write off a percentage of the operatories, like the chairs and everything. Well, if you’re going to write all this stuff off every year, it’s going to make your income look lower than it kind of technically is, and so for tax purposes, your income is going to look pretty low and it’s going to be legitimate. This not something that is illegal or anything, even though that’s a clause that everybody does- Shaun Keating: Exactly. Travis Hornsby: And then the EBITDA is the earnings that you’re [crosstalk 00:23:35]- Shaun Keating: It’s real [crosstalk 00:23:36] like the real… it’s the real deal earnings because when you sell a company it’s all about EBITDA I guess. It’s like, “Oh, we’re going to give you two times or three times”… sometimes it’s 14 times, it’s just different in different industries, but that’s the real deal. That’s kind of like net/net or not net/net, but it’s just real numbers before you’re writing shit off and everything? Or… Travis Hornsby: Yeah, and then so it’s two times if you’re service based, and if you’re like a tech company, they just give you a hundred times or negative earnings, you know what I mean? To put a negative on a positive, multiply by a hundred. I’m just joking, but [crosstalk 00:24:12]- Shaun Keating: I got lost on that [crosstalk 00:24:13]. That reminded me of [crosstalk 00:24:13] algebra there. I was like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about, baby. EBITDA, I don’t like that EBITDA [crosstalk 00:24:18]- Travis Hornsby: Well, you know with Netflix, you burning all kinds of money and you’re somehow work hundreds of billions of dollars. I don’t get it. Shaun Keating: Neither do I [crosstalk 00:24:25]- Travis Hornsby: But Netflix has stick to… not Netflix, dentistry has stick to its money. You’re making real good money of a very low risk. A lot of times I like to ask these new grads… I actually like to ask them like quiz them. I’m like, “Tell me about… what do you think is the number of dentists who fail through the business lens?” They usually tell me like 30%, 20%, something like that. No, it’s like 0.3%. Shaun Keating: Really? Travis Hornsby: It’s very, very low, and most of the people who failed do so because they can’t quit the bottle. Shaun Keating: Oh, okay. Travis Hornsby: As long as you can stay sober, you can make money in dentistry. Shaun Keating: Hey, tell me a little bit about… what’s the difference between student debt 20 years ago and compared to today? Any difference? Travis Hornsby: Big difference, huge difference. One positive thing you can say is the access to becoming a dentist has drastically expanded. Back in the day, dental school might have not cost very much, but if you’re coming from a low-income background, maybe you’re an underrepresented minority, or your parents didn’t go to college, so maybe you’re not able to get the collateral, maybe you’re not able to go to dental school. Maybe you don’t literally have that option unless you go into the military and then that’s your only choice, right? Shaun Keating: Yes. Travis Hornsby: Whereas, now anybody can go literally from any background. Now, the bad part of that is that borrowing is totally uncapped. There’s no limit on borrowing at all, which means that I can set up a dental school and I can charge you $600,000 for four years of education and the government will give you all of it, even though the average associate is making 120 to 150K, and there’s absolutely no way that that associate would pay back that loan under traditional full repayment metrics. What happened is is in 2006, the government passed this law that made unlimited borrowing possible, and then the price of dental school exploded, and so now we have people coming out of USC and NYU, it’s like 6, $700,000 that obviously that’s a terrible decision financially if you had to pay that back directly. Luckily, you don’t have to if you know how to use the forgiveness programs the right way. Shaun Keating: Dude, that’s awesome. I bet you have so much information. I know you have your own podcast and you have a website and all this stuff, but if our listeners are interested in your services, maybe plug your website a little bit here and tell me something about that. Also, tell me a little bit about your podcast if you could. Travis Hornsby: Yes. The podcast is the best way to get free info. If you like free stuff, just listen to that. We got a lot of dental episodes, too, a lot of real specific interviews with dentists and dental practice owners and people going through stuff probably a lot of listeners are going through right now, so definitely check that out. That’s on this website. You can go to studentloanplanner.com/podcast and you’ll see all the episodes there and you can subscribe and stuff and all the places. Then, through the consulting stuff we do, if somebody is like, “I don’t want to figure this stuff out myself. I just want the help. I want the easy button.” Travis Hornsby: That’s what that is. For a few hundred bucks, studentloanplanner.com/help, and we’ve definitely advised more dentists through their student loan debt than anybody else in the country by far just because I tend to be more math oriented in my approach and that kind of jives well with dentistry because nine of the top 10 most expensive programs in the entire country that is 194,000 that I looked at for dental schools. The debt is very high in the profession, so you need a lot of math-based help to figure out exactly what to do. Shaun Keating: Well, I think Travis Hornsby from Student Loan Planner will be able to help you all out there, man. That’s awesome, dude. I really appreciate your time here, and gosh, I hope some of our dentists reach out to you. Heck, if that’s easy butting one, for 200 bucks I’ll tell you all my dentists for it if it’ll help them out. Help them out, make it easier for them to cut more teeth and send them out to Keating Dental Lab, baby. I’m there for you. Travis Hornsby: Well, yeah. Thanks so much. Dentists are a pleasure to help because there’s just so much opportunity like you’re saying. If somebody can go make a bunch of money and be a practice owner and take advantage of low cost of living places and just be a super wealthy person, or you can also put yourself in a lot of misery [crosstalk 00:28:35]- Shaun Keating: Exactly [crosstalk 00:28:35]- Travis Hornsby: And we just love pointing people forward to the former path. Shaun Keating: That’s the most important thing is just to work smarter, not harder, and it’s just a matter of getting the right people and the right information, and it’s just you can make things so much easier in life when you come in and financially you get that part of it taken care of where it’s kind of almost auto pilot and you just got the right people in the right places and doing the right. Then, you can just practice on being a better dentist and being there for the people and just letting your employees work around you, do what they do. You’re there for that patient there, man. You’re there to just take care of that patient and get in there and do your job and sit back and enjoy life. It’s a very, very great business to be a dental practice, to have a dental practice or work in one, and it’s just a few things to do it to make it right. Makes it real easy for you. Shaun Keating: Hey, Travis Hornsby, thanks for coming on The Dental Up Podcast, dude. We’ll put all your info on our show notes, so let’s just… we’ll put it up there, your website and your podcast and everything else. Dude, I thank you very much for coming onboard and giving me a little edjamacation here. Travis Hornsby: Thanks so much, Shaun. Shaun Keating: All right, dude. Travis Hornsby: Appreciate it and hope we don’t play your Dodgers anytime soon. Shaun Keating: No, good job, baby, and hey, God bless you and your family, man, and it was great talking. We’ll talk to you real soon. Travis Hornsby: Okay, Sean. Goodbye. Shaun Keating: All right, baby. Bye-bye. Host: Thanks for joining us on The Dental Up Podcast Show this week. Make sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or search The Dental Up Podcast on iTunes for our weekly feed. Don’t forget to visit keatingdentallab.com/promo for exclusive offers. Host: Keating Dental Lab is a full-service dental laboratory and we’re nationwide. We’d love for you to send us a case so we can show you the Keating difference. If you dig what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and we’ll be back next week.